From:
sukiec@optonline.net
Date: 2004-07-08 20:06:33 UTC
Subject: Re: [ferrethealth] cystine bladder stones (protein)
To: ferrethealth@smartgroups.com
Message-ID: <3376366.1089317193144.JavaMail.root@thallium.smartgroups.com>
Author wrote:
> Although, I just read on the FML from Bob C that he likes Natural Gold... less carbs
> than other food, and less carbs means less sugars and more proteins. (I may have...
> [Sukie Note: honestly, I do not know how much is too much protein or how much
> individuals may differ in how much protein they can handle. My feeling at this point
> is that perhaps no one does yet and this is a refinement that will be learned after
> more ferrets thrive or fail on higher protein levels than had been used before.
> There's bound to be a point at which there is too much protein taken in...
Well, your note pretty much illustrates my point that what we are dealing with until there is more hard data is "best guess" info based on what is known up until more is discovered, and that best guesses certainly can change when the guesses are actually tried in real life only to reap a few surprises (good or bad, or both): at this point not enough is known to understand where the cut-off that constitutes too much protein may be, which individuals may be exceptions, etc. just as the too little protein figure is not well known. I can tell you that this has been one heck of miserable surprise for us (obviously, or we would not have thought it would be safe to try protein levels as high as they were here.) but we understand that sometimes the result of experience provse the only way to learn new things.
What I also can tell you is that we are finding that cystine stones when the kidneys get involved, too, don't seem to be an easier problem than insulinoma except perhaps when diet changes back to lower protein (esp. lower cystine levels) can help.
I would not say that cystine stones are proving so far for us to be a harder a problem, when I consider both individuals together, than insulinoma (because Hilbert was harder than insulinoma htat isn't end-stage but Mornie was easier). It's just a different problem, and one which can potentially be just as fatal.
We don't know how complicated this is going to get, though. Only time will tell that.
BTW, since I know people will ask privately if I don't say here: between Hilbert's birth deformity of his bladder, the stones both he and Mornie had, and and his hydroneprosis and all from the back-up due to the stones I guess that we've spent something in the range of $3,500 up in recent weeks with the surgeries, x-rays, ultrasounds, long and multiple hospitalizations, meds, etc. and would not be surprised if we have spent more like $4,000 to save them.
We still don't know if the other two should be x-rayed; that has to be decided, nor do we know if any will need more meds (beyond knowing that Hilbert will have med changes when his culture is done), further testing, etc..
So, the point is that what isn't known is far, far more than what is known.
Over time, and with more ferrets showing what protein levels are optimal (not too little and not too much) vs. which levels cause trouble we'll all have our answers. Till then we simply won't.
Just know that moderation makes sense.
Now, we just have to figure out what moderation actually is in this protein level conundrum!