From:
Sukie Crandall
Date: 2007-06-21 17:18:42 UTC
Subject: Re: [ferrethealth] Re: Periodontal Disease and other food comments
To: ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com
On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:36 AM, Kim wrote:
> The raw feeding debate will probably continue for eons to come. But I
> disagree that feeding processed foods, to animals whose heritage is
> eating raw, is more beneficial.
Well, is it really, really, really, really, really , really (Did I
remember to emphasize "really" important to separate hypotheses from
well documented things.
There are a number of us who have had ferrets for decades, and many
ferrets at that, who simply have not run into periodontal disease, or
who have run into it only in highly compromised ferrets who were on
soft foods, and many of us are people who are careful to have
pathology done after death. Are there periodontal disease
exceptions? Of course, there have been, are, and will be, but you
have had one young ferret for 2 years, Kim, so I think that the years
ahead with any choices that you make are sure to have some surprises,
just as they have for all of the rest of us who have been there.
(I think the rate of necropsies and pathology done is often higher
among the ferrets of people with many decades with ferrets and I
think that is because: 1. We are more likely to have a past of
being involved in improving veterinary knowledge, 2. We are more
likely to have or to have had vets who taught others about ferrets
hands-on during necropsies and now that the following pathology is
essential for a full picture, and 3. We know from long experience
how much those two things pay off in terms of saving later ferrets
because we have seen that time and time again.)
>
> It only makes sense that periodontal diseases cause problems in the
> rest of the animal's system. Talk to a human dentist about the
> problems caused elsewhere in the human body from periodontal disease.
Well, yes and no. Some of the hypotheses on that score have been
panning out and some haven't on study. To top it off, there is
strong evidence that some diseases such as kidney disease, perhaps
ADV, and very likely (though hard enough proof is not yet in)
advanced heart disease do themselves have ways that they cause
periodontal disease, so the chicken and egg picture is a bit
complicated. Is there evidence that periodontal disease introduces
bacteria into the blood stream? Yep. Is it always enough or of
types to cause problems? Not necessarily. Do ferrets have all of
the same bacteria that humans have which cause such problems? Nope.
I know so far of only one which overlaps but personally expect there
to be more discovered later since mouths harbor so many types of
bacteria. When the bacteria are introduced is vulnerability
universal? In heart studies that does not appear to be the case.
Certain pre-existing heart conditions greatly increase vulnerability.
In the archives of the FHL and FML I have put articles and posts
where I looked a lot of things up about some apparent limitations,
some apparent cautions, and so on -- things on both side of the fence
while remembering that right now the picture is so complex and so
incredible incomplete that the fence is the only reasonable place to be.
Seriously, it is best to not take a firm stand until there is
something firm to stand on. The things that can be said now are what
Danee said, part of which boil down to:
Take dental and gum health seriously and do treat them, but be
careful to not jump too quickly to conclusions.
Stacking hypotheses upon hypotheses is a wonderful mental exercise
and sometimes leads to great advances, but before there are claims of
advances there need to be carefully collected unbiased data, then
there need to be careful challenges because often there are
unrecognized alternative explanations, and there preferably also will
be independent and unbiased confirmation of all parts of the
supposition.
So, yes, we all need to learn, but we also need to remember that
there are valid and very different situations out there, some with
careful data (such as necropsy results) behind them which show that
as they stand some popular hypotheses don't hold water and need
modification to meet the challenges.
> I don't need a scientific peer review to prove that my ferret's teeth
> and gums are healthy from eating normal whole prey and RMB.
But, Kim, you have one healthy ferret in the earliest part of the
prime of life, so of course your ferret's teeth and gums are
healthy. The sole problems I have ever seen with teeth in any ferret
your little one's age in 26 years with ferrets were:
1. PV ferrets bred to have too short a face who gnawed an unusual
degree during teething. (I think they since stopped trying for that
look some time ago.)
2. one of those who erupted a molar through his palate so it needed
removing
3. a ferret who had a baby canine become trapped and twisted by the
adult canine coming in who got an abscess. (Wound up with us as a
biter and we stopped the biting immediately -- an effect with lasted
lifelong with her forever adoring us -- by removing that trapped
canine, allowing the infection's pus to gush out, relieving her pain
greatly, and then headed straight to the vet.)
>
> The scientific community has almost come full circle ragarding MANY
> health concerns and "natural" approaches.
Less so than premature reporting and mis-reporting cause people to
think.
Also, even when reporters DO emphasize that something is only
hypothetical there are a lot of people who forget that or do not
grasp the enormous difference between an interesting idea which many
things point to as opposed to something that has been shown to be
valid by tedious testing and meeting rigorous challenges.
>
> I am a confirmed "natural feeder" for my ferret and encourage other
> folks to do the same for their ferrets.
>
> If I listened to my vet, I'd be feeding her a kibble diet, then
> taking her to the vet for regular teeth cleanings.
>
We feed kibble.
Danee feeds both.
Yes, we have had some ferrets who have needed dental care by the
vet. Most of them have not life-long. Again, don't assume that the
the need will be universal even with extremely good vet care looking
for it (and I will frankly say that I am going to see about possibly
having buccal (cheekside) molar scraping for two soon if the vet
thinks they need it because we are very careful), and certainly do
not assume that your vet urges kibble for a profit reason. Kibbles
provide carefully balanced nutrition and do not harbor the risks of
multiple possible infections and parasites that raw foods do, nor the
bone perforation risks, so the vet has weighed the data and simply
come to a different conclusion than you have. That is valid and it
is not fair to assume that it has a thing to do with possible later
dental care. Not everyone looks at the data in the same way.
Different people have different data, too.
Sukie (not a vet)
Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
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