From:
"Sukie Crandall"
Date: 2008-03-21 15:51:16 UTC
Subject: [ferrethealth] Re:Insulinoma and ferret diets
To: ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com
Here in the U.S. the trend to raw originally began in zoos
but some zoos have since returned to a balanced cooked diet
due to disease issues especially when endangered animals were
involved. I can only imagine how sickened the curators and
keepers felt when those Black Footed Ferrets at one location
died of E. coli, and then when studies done on domestic ferrets
and other species showed that disease does kidney damage to
the survivors. Of course, the ones being returned to the wild
have to eat raw, but the core breeding stock doesn't always
though mothers need to at critical times for teaching the kits
who are to be released... Of course, the risk rate of infection is
low; it is just that the consequences are so high that those who
make the choices have to figure how they personally choose to
go.
There is a LOT GOING ON. To this date we don't know the rates
of insulinoma, nor the comparative rates for different locations.
We don't know if Australian ferrets are in general less likely to
get insulinoma because we don't know how their genetics differ
from here. With import of ferrets prohibited there (though I know
of someone who is trying to fight that and got her to an ECE testing
expert who can do the tests the Australian gov't wants on that score)
Australia has an isolated population. If I recall right, even before that
ban imports of ferrets were rare. Here in the U.S. we are dealing with
the results of a couple of decades of increasing pressure for "fancy
ferrets" and we all know that selecting for appearance first can result
in ones who don't have good mouth manners, have shorter lives, and
have medical problems if the wrong genetics goes along with that
preferred appearance. That's a lot of generations of emphasizing the
wrong things.
We also know that on study too many U.S. ferrets looked at DO turn
out to have at least once of TWO genetic vulnerabilities (in other species
so studies continue) for endocrinological tumors showing up more than
anyone would like. Some have both of those and there are other possible
genetic vulnerabilities that haven't even been looked at yet.
The first:
MEN (Multiple Endocrinological Neoplasia) genetics
(study headed by Dr. Michelle Hawkins of UC Davis who is now heading
a broader genetics study on ferrets) greatly increases the tendency to
get endocrinological diseases in the other species already studied so
that makes it highly likely that it will in ferrets, too.
The second:
a p53 genetic variant
(study headed by Dr. Bob Wagner of U. Pitt) makes it much harder for
the body to fight off the very early tumors before they can take hold
in the species so far studied (something which happens normally in
all regularly) and also helps fight larger tumors.
So, we know of two potentially very nasty genetic vulnerabilities. A
third (which I can't talk about yet) may soon be looked at more closely if
funding can be scared up for it. It would not surprise me if others are
looking at some other possibilities.
So, there is also the chance that the populations in different continents
differ significantly genetically.
When Steve and i first began having ferrets here in the U.S. the ferrets
were ALMOST NEVER FANCIES and people almost never encountered
adrenal disease or insulinoma. When they did the ferrets virtually always
were 5 years old but usually even older, such as 7 or 8 years old.
The foods then were worse than now. That was about 27 years ago.
There were no fancy foods, but then again there were almost no fancy
ferrets so maybe there were not the same needs as now. The right side
of the curve on longevity seemed to be larger -- i.e. more seemed to
live past 7 or 8 years of age. THE RATES OF INSULINOMA AND ADRENAL
DISEASE WERE LOWER -- SOMETHING THAT IS NOT JUST MY IMPRESSION
BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO WERE EXOTIC VETS THEN TOO HAVE ALSO SAID IT TO
ME.
So, there have been changes over time here in the U.S.
In relation to adrenal, a different endocrinological disease, the internet
reports of it seemed to increase, and then later there seemed to begin
being reports of early cases. To me, having been around long enough
on-line, the two report increases were clearly separated in time by a
few years.
There are also different husbandry changes over time. We all already
know that too little complete darkness might well be able to play a part
in at least some increases of the rates or in pulling down the age of
on-set of adrenal disease, or both, because of the sequence that has
been clearly demonstrated in sequential studies:
1. too little darkness decreases the body's production of melatonin
2. too little circulating melatonin leads to an increase in the body's
output of FSH and LH (and probably also affects other hormones
elsewhere since melatonin is a very old hormone involved in very
many bodily functions)
3. too much FH starts the neoplasia process in the adrenals
Husbandry differs among households, too. I know of one where the
ferrets get a huge amount of exercise -- a huge dedicated play area
with tons of great athletic games -- but aside from the degree and
that they don't have to share their room with computer equipment
(which has those horrid green and blue lights that decrease melatonin
production), climate (and from the night light pollution maps lower
ambient light at night than here), their other factors are similar to our
own here, including diet (high quality kibble). Their ferrets typically
live to be 9 or 10 years old. Our ferrets typically live to be late 7 to
middle 8 years old. Both of us usually provide a lot of access to full
darkness (though we had a few years when I was recovering from a
mobility problem when we could not till about 2 and 1/2 to 3 years
ago, and an earlier extended one) and both households encounter
lower rates of endocrinological disease than many in the U.S. seem to
report. Over the 27 years Steve and i have had ferrets in the family
(including two extended times when health problems made easy
access to a lot of complete darkness available and the few years after
those times like now for the second one) we have had about 1/3 of the
ferrets develop any form of adrenal disease in their lifetimes, and a
tad less than 20% develop any form of pancreatic disease (including
insulinoma) in their lifetimes. So, maybe level of heavy exercise also
plays a part in disease avoidance for ferrets just as it does for other
species.
In photos from other countries i have also noticed what seems to be a
lower number of ferrets with obesity than I see here in the U.S. where
obesity among ferrets seems to show up quite a bit. For other species
that, too, plays multiple health roles, and the hormones produced by
fat appear to be involved in the onset of the endocrinological disorder,
diabetes, in other species, as well as in the chances of developing some
endocrinological tumors in other species.
What hormonal changes might affect pancreatic neoplasia? No one knows,
really, in the case of insulinoma. That, neural changes, genetics, diet, and
other husbandry differences have all been proposed as possibly playing parts,
either separately or in conjunction. Only hard, challenged, well designed
study over time will tell the new information we all need before drawing
conclusions. We simply don't have that yet.
(It all can get pretty complicated, too. For example, melatonin actually
appears to be involved in two normal pancreatic hormonal interactions
which oppose each other, so maybe added melatonin might be good
beforehand, or even during some stages of insulinoma but bad in other
stages of the disease process once insulinoma is present. Obviously, we
know pretty much squat. We have hypotheses, JUST hypotheses, ONLY
hypotheses but what we don't have are anywhere near the needed details --
the documented data -- on the actual processes which are occurring in
their bodies, we don't yet have the genetic data needed, either, nor the
epidemiological data, heck, we don't even have clear husbandry differences
data though we have some or the start of some on where ferrets are more
likely to live inside vs. out, how ambient light at night differs in those areas
(from light pollution maps), and feeding differences, but there is so much
more that is missing).
It is fine to try hypotheses and some of those hypotheses will over time
pan out of course (though not all will), but I personally think that it is
ESSENTIAL to try to let people know what is a hypothesis vs. what is not
well demonstrated by careful physiological, epidemiological, genetic, and
other studies because PEOPLE AND FERRETS GET HURT WHEN PEOPLE DON'T
--IN THEIR MINDS AND SPEECH -- SEPARATE HYPOTHESES FROM WELL
DEMONSTRATED AND WELL STUDIED ASPECTS. Why and how? Well, the
people invest themselves to much emotionally; then if it fails they feel
betrayed. For the ferrets, what happens is that the people who are
invested emotionally miss early signs that that assume can't happen,
and also the people tend to not test the ferrets the way that they should
or don't let their vets do so, meaning that treatment only happens once
the disease process if well established or even too established to achieve
anything.
I personally am completely staying out of the "this food or that" discussion
which began when I was away. Why? Because those always go into circles,
get repetitive, and anything mentioned in them or questioned about them
can usually be found in the FHL Archives (though it would be cool if some
published study abstracts not already found and included already showed up).
On the other hand, I do think that it is important to at least discuss the
things that can be discussed, for instance, the MULTITUDE of husbandry,
environmental, and obvious genetic differences (for example, number of panda
markings seen) between locations. There are many differences and sometimes
differences in how words are used, as has been discovered here on the FHL
and also in the FML a large number of time. There are MANY differences,
between our continents, though, not not one, and even not just a few...
--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, John Lewington <jhlewing@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sandra and all,
> Looking from the perspective of having
> ferrets for over 30 years, living both inside and out, and feeding
> on fresh meat suitable for human consumption
> I have never had a case of Insulinoma. Only one
> annoying case of Adrenal disease but that is
> a different story.
> Feeding ferrets meat and egg diets of course
> takes away the use of the multitude of processed ferret diets .
> "Totally Ferret" diets in the USA appears
> superior but there is a trend even in the cat and dog feeding world
> to get back to more natural food
> ingredients. I have stopped feeding my cat (no dog at present) on
> commercial biscuit food and have had no trouble.
> Perhaps in this busy world people have no
> time to throw a few fresh food items together for their pets.
> I should really throw a dead rabbit with
> guts exposed to my pet ferret ,as people using ferrets for hunting had the
> idea of doing, but that would be going too
> far on the kitchen floor!
> Cheers,
> John Lewington. B.Vet.Med. MRCVS
> Author "Ferret Husbandry,
> Medicine and Surgery. Elsevier UK 2008
>
------------------------------------
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