From:
Sukie Crandall
Date: 2012-02-09 17:57:27 UTC
Subject: RE: [ferrethealth] Re: Vanadyl Sulfate for Insulinoma
To: fhl <ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com>, kittyspirit09 <aryiella@live.com>
Holly, the more I read of what you have written and in studies on this mineral compound, the more and more I think that your ferret actually has diabetes (perhaps MILD diabetes), not insulinoma. That mistake HAS been made before in three ways:
1. Sent out blood has the glucose levels drop and longer the blood waits the lower the levels get.
2. If the ferret was fasted that HAS to be noted by the pathologist who reads the blood, and if it was too long a fast it can mess up the conclusions
3. On the surface diabetes CAN resemble insulinoma. In fact, there have been past FHL members whose ferrets worsened or even died from treatment for insulinoma when they actually had diabetes.
4. Your ferret DID worsen on insulinoma meds
5. Vanadyl Sulfate does appear to help some diabetics (and read my post below fully because it includes some notes taken REAL TIME as I read through the MOST RECENT EXPERT ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE ARTICLE ON THE COMPOUND). I included TWO short quotes -- noted as such -- from that article, but the rest is ALL paraphrasing so does NOT violate copyright.
There is an excellent quote from a recent issue of Time Magazine, I think in a piece by Bryan Walsh, and I can't find it right now but it boils down to the volume of a statement having poor correlation to it's accuracy.
Which gets to a cornerstone of science and medicine: Accuracy is NOT based on popularity races or opinions, but upon cold, hard data which can be duplicated.
Anecdotes are not data (Thank you again, Linda, for that quote.).
Observations taken alone tend to be very flawed when:
1. there is no actual data (and in this case the ferret is NOT under the care of a veterinarian for the use of this mineral compound; the vet who first proposed the use was not hired for consultation and the list member did not even run the idea past her vet -- as you can see in her OWN post last night, plus the list member has not even tried to run blood samples herself or even bought a meter)
2. the sample size (number of individuals in this case) is small
3. the time frame is small (in this case only one week as of today)
4. there has not been expert and independent confirmation
5. the mechanism involved is not understood. (In this case, the HYPOTHETICAL mechanism being proposed by that person is NOT what the current data on Vanadyl say, but is 16 years old. The more supported and FAR more recent mechanism hypothesis is that it is an insulin MIMIC. See this RECENT EXPERT ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE ARTICLE which Dr. Jerry Murray found:
Alternative Medicine Review Volume 14, Number 2 2009
for confirmation on that score. It seems to be the MOST RECENT EXPERT ALTERNATIVE ARTICLE ON THE TOPIC. Again, it says that the hypothesis with the most current support on this is that the mineral compound is JUST AN INSULIN MIMIC.
BTW, I am not using the right names in places to save time. For those who want to search more: the right names are Vanadyl Sulfate or Vanadium, originally called Panchromium (and that might perk up the ears of people who know that chromium increases insulin levels a bit and in that way helps ferrets with insulin
AND:
* It also may perk up the ears of people who have run into situations where what looked superfiscially like insulinoma was really DIABETES, as well as those who have been members long enough that they have read those posts here.*
and then in between was called Erythronium. The discoverer thought at first that it was a new element but was later convinced by the further investigations of other scientists that it was IMPURE CHROMIUM. Nutritionally it might be a cofactor in enzymatic reactions. The data that it is just an insulin mimic is from BOTH human and animal studies according to the article. Dietary sources are mushrooms, shellfish, black pepper, dill seeds, and some grains. In us it is considered an ultra-trace element with most people getting 6 to 18 mcg per day, but it may be an essential element for some birds. It concentrates in the liver, kidneys and bones (which is why it can be toxic to same).
* THIS will interest you. According the that most recent expert alternative medicine article the more insulin there is present in the body the faster the compound is metabolized. That section is on page 177 and 178 of the article. *
Okay, on page 178 the UPPER amount of how much of the compound is absorbed is 10%; some individuals only absorb about 1%! It is eliminated quickly with most lost in the urine (which is another reason the warning stands about possible kidney damage).
Later on that page (I am going through the article REAL TIME for you!) it says there is some limited data that it MIGHT inhibit tyrosine phosphatase, and/or MIGHT reduce gluconeogenesis and/or increase glycogen deposition.)
Vandium deficiency has been described in birds; later the person just says animals so I will look as time goes on to see if studies have been done with it purposely removed from the diet in any mammals. No such deficiency has been found in humans.
Today's focus is on using it for diabetes (and remember that in diabetes the insulin levels are too low whereas in insulinoma they are too high, *****that working from symptoms alone people have confused diabetes with insulinoma in the past -- and some have even killed such ferrets by treating for insulinoma whereas more have worsened the condition of such ferrets before stopping treatment*****, and remember that with insulinoma the tumors are always turned on and can NOT be regulated so the balance is achieved from treatment and diet.
Okay, I just found a reference to the sensitivity studies. I'd already found one, but there is second, HOWEVER: the article says they are OLD and they were SHORT (two weeks for the 6, and three weeks for the 2 and in that one they purposely used moderately obese patients since that DOES affect some things for pancreatic functions) and they had very small samples (6 individuals in one and only 2 in the other one) AND -- here is the kicker -- they were on HUMAN DIABETICS, not on anyone with insulinoma.
Short quote since I am running out of time; after saying that it may be retained in kidneys, livers, and bones for months it says
BEGIN TWO SHORT QUOTES
Acute vanadium toxicity has not been observed in humans. In rats, acute poisoning from sodium vanadate resulted in enteritis, mild liver congestion, and slight renal tubule degeneration.
Warnings and Contraindications
Caution should be used when combining vanadium supplements with any blood-sugar lowering medication as the combination may induce hypoglycemia.
END TWO SHORT QUOTES
So, it may also worsen ferrets with insulinoma
BUT
and HERE is what I THINK may be happening since the ferret under discussion also worsened with Pred: it may HELP a ferret who actually has DIABETES which was confused with insulinoma based upon insufficient testing and superfiscial observations!
**************************
MY current inclination is to think that Holly's ferret actually has DIABETES, NOT insulinoma,
after learning more!
**************************
When thinking about these things always be sure to remember, too, that you CAN NOT sensitize the cells of insulinoma. They are mutant beta cells and they are stuck on. That is IT. What changes is what there is in the ferret to balance the equation better, such as the meds that work, and foods as well as food choices. (See my post to Mike on that score.)
As many know before I became just a member I was a moderator for 10 years, and I can tell you that every single moderator who has spent enough time helping FHL members has at times been pushed to the wall by certain members. There is a lot of work and communication happening off-list too, and from my experience that amounts to dozens of hours each week (says she who often worked 40 to 60 hours each and every week for the sake of FHL members) with much of what happens occurring off-list.
Remember, too, that multiple veterinarians both on-list and off have said that this choice has the risk of being fatal, can damage essential organs like the kidneys even if it is not more rapidly fatal, and at best might just pass through since only 10% of Vanadyl ingested by mammals is metabolized, so in that case it does nothing.
Remember also, that the list moderators HAVE to follow international copyright laws, so they legally can NOT carry long quotes to the FHL without the approval of the authors themselves. I had a lot of people tell me that was a pain in the butt back when I was a moderator and it was for me, too, but it is also simple respect.
The FHL moderators provide a LOT of service, much more than list members see, and do it all BECAUSE THEY CARE. They care about YOU and they care about YOUR FERRETS. It is very hard job and each moderator who has spent more than a few hours at that work has exploded on or off list at someone. I did so to three or four people over the ten years that I worked as an FHL moderator.
So, while everyone has things they would do differently I am NOT going to look a gift horse in the mouth and I am going to be grateful that
Sukie (not a vet)
Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html
"All hail the procrastinators for they shall rule the world tomorrow."
(2010, Steve Crandall)
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